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Are They Making the Tournaments Harder?

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
Now, I'm fully confused :(

Also, this doesn't change the fact that whatever your squad size is, you will hit a wall on the same spot because the enemies will get stronger than your troops so the rest of my post is still valid.
Lemme try again.:)

There is no wall.
Enemies do not get stronger than you except if you do the same province more than twice.
So, you can do
province #20
your 1,000 vs enemy 850 (one star)
then
your 1,000 vs enemy 1,000 (two stars)<---- 2 stars is always a fair 1 on 1 fight that you can win

Province #40
your 2,000 vs 1,700 (one star)
then
your 2,000 vs 2,000 (two stars)<---- 2 stars is always a fair 1 on 1 fight that you can win

etc etc.
So you can go all the way until you run out of provinces or troops for 2 rounds, and ALWAYS WIN, there is no wall.
A player who skipped SS techs can do more because they lose fewer troops.

E.G.
in round 2 province 20 above, you are doing 1000 vs 1000 and lose say 300 troops
the player who skipped SS
in round 2 province 20 would have 700 vs 700 and lose say 210 troops.
That player now has 90 more troops than you. Multiplied out for every single tournament fight it really adds up.

In the end you run out of troops around province #25, and the SS skipper still has enough to do 26-29 a couple times each.
 
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DeletedUser7733

Guest
I try to explain it more clearly. First, please tell me which calculation is right because it's different in your two posts and that's why I'm confused.

your SS is 1000
round 3 is 15% enemy boost
province #2 is 20/2=10 so 10% your size
1000x(1+0.15)x0.1=1150
your enemies SS will be 1,150 vs your 1,000

Let's say SS 1,000 for easy numbers

Province #10 in round 5 would be
prov 10*5% = 50%, so you bring 500 troops.
round 5 is +45% so the enemy brings 500*1.45 = 725
Your 500 vs the enemy 725.
Good chance you get your butt kicked.

Province # 22 round 1 would be
prov 22*5% = 110%, so you bring 1,100 troops
round 1 is -15% so the enemy brings 1,100*.85 =935
Your 1,100 vs the enemy 935

Also, in case the first calculation is correct then please tell me the correct result of this function: 1000x(1+0.15)x0.1=1150 because it's not what you say.

Thank you for new information but still a fighter like me doesn't get to province no 20, I start losing way before that so I stop and wait for next day. I usually do 10 in round 1, 7 in round 2, 4 in round 3, 1 in round 4. So as you can see, I do hit a wall. My explanation for this is that the enemy squad size got too big in relation to my squad size. Because both enemy and my squad size grow based on percentages, again it's irrelevant what squad size you have. Of course, the better the fighter the further you get and might run out of troops before you start losing fights, in that case you might be better off skipping SS upgrades. If you're a fighter that can do more than 20 provinces in round 1 and 2, you're better off skipping the SS upgrades.

My conclusion from this, that I addressed in my previous posts is that skipping squad size upgrades is not as beneficial to everyone as it seems. The only benefit in my situation is that I'd save some supplies by skipping the upgrades. However, because I hit a wall earlier than province 20 as I'm not a great fighter, my tournament points remain the same whatever the squad size I have. I don't need to replace my troops as I still have them but my fighting skills aren't strong enough to continue. Autofight does have it's limits. I hope I explained it well enough :)
 

DeletedUser4149

Guest
cleverangel, i think you're confusing the difference between total number of troops and total number of squads. yes, you will run into a spot where you won't win more fights regardless of your squad size. but a person w/ a lower squad size can do more provinces for the same total amount of troops used as someone w/ a higher squad size. squad sizes don't effect the production of troops at all, except for the fact that a bulwark will improve a little bit when you unlock squad sizes. improving your troop production doesn't change the fact that your tournaments will consume more troops.
 

DeletedUser7733

Guest
Squad size upgrades decrease your ability to do as much in the tournament because they increase both your army and the enemies at the same rate thus increasing your losses.

For example:
100 vs 100 and 20 of your troops die (20%)
Then you unlock an SS tech
110 vs 110 and 22 of your troops die (20%)

Because it takes longer to train 22 troops than 20, that SS the is hurting you in the tournament- this is why it is advisable to skip all optional SS techs until the devs fix this imbalance.

Lower squad size means that it's easier to recoup your losses and therefore can do more fights if you're still able to win. If your troops or your skills aren't strong enough to continue fighting, training more troops easier will not make a difference, you still will not be able to continue. I hope I'm not the only one that stops fighting once I start losing fights and keep my troops for next day when it's easier in the first couple of provinces. Of course, I can keep fighting till I lose all my troops and then wait for next day, in that case I'll need to recoup my troops easier with lower squad size. But why to keep fighting if you keep losing? Unless you're a good fighter and you keep winning till you run out of troops then lower squad size makes it much easier to win more points.
 

DeletedUser4149

Guest
you will run into a point where you can't win fights anymore based on the round and diversity of the enemies.

no, we can have the same production and have different squad sizes. it might take you longer to recover 1 full squad than me. but it can take us the same amount of time to produce 500 archers. unlocking squad sizes doesn't improve or weaken production.

actually, the next day will get harder because you will be in a later round where the enemy has a larger squad size in proportion to yours. province #3 has the same difficulty as province #40 ( i've been there ). the proportions are the same in each province as long as it's the same round. if you have a higher total number of troops, you can win more provinces.

if we started w/ the same total number of troops and we each did 20 provinces, you would have about 30% more casualties ( if it's accurate that each sq size upgrade adds 15% to the total amount of enemy units in each province. that's probably a good guess.) i could do more provinces because i saved those extra 30% more troops.

our squad sizes don't matter when it comes to the total number of troops we have. you will have fewer but larger squads for both tournament and regular encounters. in tournament combat, the computer will also have larger sizes against you. the proportion of damage done to both of us can be the same. but you will lose more total troops if we both lost 50% of armies. we would lose about the same % of troops since the computer's size is scaled to ours. 50% of a larger squad is a higher total amount of troops than what it would be to my smaller squads. you would take more casualties and have fewer squads to start, both of which would enable me to do more provinces.
 

DeletedUser4149

Guest
our squad sizes matter when it comes to troops consumed in tournament, not the amount of troops produced. by having many smaller squads, i can use that larger number of squads to do more provinces. i'm also taking less casualties because i'm being attacked by smaller computer squads than you. the % of damage to our squad size can be the same for both of us ( it probably will be too). that same % of damage will cost a person w/ larger squads more total troops that will take longer to be produced. squad sizes don't effect production.
 

DeletedUser7733

Guest
I think that we're pretty well saying the same thing in different words in regards to training size and squad size. Also, when I say that the enemy gets stronger, it means that the squad size of the enemy grew bigger than mine. Based on @SoggyShorts information, the enemy squad size goes up with every province and every round and it does happen that a higher province in lower round has bigger enemy squad size than a lower province in higher round. We could argue this forever if we won't have the same information on what's actually happening.

What I'm trying to explain that for fighters like me that hit their limit early, skipping squad size upgrades doesn't make a big difference. I don't run out of troops, I run out of skills and motivation to do better as it's not really my thing. But of course, the more skillful you are, the more provinces you will do and the more troops you need to make up for your losses. And yes, if I did that many provinces as you do, I would have bigger losses but I don't do that many provinces. I just don't want new players to automatically skip squad size upgrades without considering both sides. If they enjoy fighting in the tournament they should skip them, if they just do autofight and don't get very far then I wouldn't recommend it.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
when I say that the enemy gets stronger, it means that the squad size of the enemy grew bigger than mine. Based on @SoggyShorts information, the enemy squad size goes up with every province and every round and it does happen that a higher province in lower round has bigger enemy squad size than a lower province in higher round. We could argue this forever if we won't have the same information on what's actually happening.
Close, but not quite right.
Your SS and the enemy SS go up the same as you go higher in provinces. The enemy does not gain an advantage over you when you go from province 10 to 20.

The enemy only gains an advantage over you starting in round 3 for the 3rd star.
This means that
province #1 round 6 will be a very hard fight and you will often lose, but it also means that
province #40 round 1 will be very easy, and you will pretty much always win.


I usually do 10 in round 1, 7 in round 2, 4 in round 3, 1 in round 4. So as you can see, I do hit a wall.

When you are "stuck" this tournament, do a test for me and I will prove to you that there is no such thing as a wall.
In the above scenario try province #11 where you have not tried at all before. You will win because you outnumber the enemy. Then try #12 you will win there too. Keep going until you are convinced that what I am saying is true:)

You will always have a numerical advantage of 15% over the enemy when getting the first star in a province. This is true for every province from 1 to 100 and beyond.

BTW, I do provinces 1-5 to 5 stars, and provinces 6 to 38 for 2 stars.:eek:
Province #38 on day 1 and 2 is easy, I just autofight and always win.:D
Province #5 round 5 is really hard, and I often have to manual fight or cater some encounters.:mad:
If I had more troops I would win province #39 as well, guaranteed because it is just as easy as 38
 
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DeletedUser7733

Guest
I’ve done my own numbers and this is what I came up with:

- our squad size increases by 5% as you progress through the provinces, it’s the same for every round and stops increasing at province no 20 when in becomes 100% (eg in province no 1 our tournament squad size is 5% of our total squad size, in province 2 its 10%, in province no 10 it’s 50% - if our total squad size is 1000, our tournament squad size in round 1 is 50, in round 2 100 and in round 10 500)

- enemy squad size is based on percentage of our tournament squad size and doesn’t change as you progress through the provinces, it increase from round to round by 15% starting at -15% ON AVERAGE. So in round 1, our enemy squad size is -15% of our tournament squad size on average, round 2 is 0% on average, round 3 15% on average etc (eg if our total squad size is 1000, our tournament squad size in province 1 and round 1 is 50, the enemy size on average will be 43 – -15% of 50)

- there are four fights in each province. Our squad size is the same for all four fights based on the calculation above, the enemy squad size changes but it’s AVERAGE is as calculated above. The problem is that the range can be quite large, it can vary +-10% and in some case even 25%. So it’s possible that even in province 1 round 1, you can face enemy squad size bigger than yours. Of course if you lose in this province, it will not cost you much as your squad size is quite small. However, if you lose in province 10 round 1, it will cost you 10x more. The higher the province, the harder it will be to recoup your losses as you squad size is higher. This is the reason why I stop on the first loss and wait for the next day when my squad size and therefore risk goes down again. Also, I forgot to mention that I don’t have any AWs that boost my troops.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
- our squad size increases by 5% as you progress through the provinces, it’s the same for every round and stops increasing at province no 20 when in becomes 100% (eg in province no 1 our tournament squad size is 5% of our total squad size, in province 2 its 10%, in province no 10 it’s 50% - if our total squad size is 1000, our tournament squad size in round 1 is 50, in round 2 100 and in round 10 500)
Very close, I've highlighted the only error. It keeps going up by 5% as you say, but it does not stop, ever. In province 30 it is 150%, in province 60 it is 300% etc.
- enemy squad size is based on percentage of our tournament squad size and doesn’t change as you progress through the provinces, it increase from round to round by 15% starting at -15% ON AVERAGE. So in round 1, our enemy squad size is -15% of our tournament squad size on average, round 2 is 0% on average, round 3 15% on average etc (eg if our total squad size is 1000, our tournament squad size in province 1 and round 1 is 50, the enemy size on average will be 43 – -15% of 50)
Perfect.
- there are four fights in each province. Our squad size is the same for all four fights based on the calculation above, the enemy squad size changes but it’s AVERAGE is as calculated above. The problem is that the range can be quite large, it can vary +-10% and in some case even 25%. So it’s possible that even in province 1 round 1, you can face enemy squad size bigger than yours. Of course if you lose in this province, it will not cost you much as your squad size is quite small. However, if you lose in province 10 round 1, it will cost you 10x more. The higher the province, the harder it will be to recoup your losses as you squad size is higher.
Bang on. The disparity comes from enemy # of stacks. When it's your 5 vs 5, then the formula is perfect. However, there is another sneaky formula involved when the enemy has more or fewer than 5 stacks of troops.
I'd have to go find it again, but basically, if the enemy has more than 5 stacks they will have more total units than they should, and if they have fewer than 5 stacks, they will have fewer.
This is the reason why I stop on the first loss and wait for the next day when my squad size and therefore risk goes down again.
You kinda lost me here. If you lose a fight today, the fight will be exactly the same set up the next time you try it- Same SS for you, same SS for the enemy, same terrain, same enemy positions too.
If you start to lose fights, the answer is to go wider instead of deeper.(see below)
I forgot to mention that I don’t have any AWs that boost my troops.
With no military wonders I would expect a player to start having trouble winning in round 4, and would suggest only doing very few provinces that deep.
Instead of trying to do more of the difficult fights, I would recommend doing the big easy ones in higher numbered provinces for fewer stars.

Province #3 round 4 kicking your butt? Go smash province # 12 round 1:)
The nice thing about going into the higher provinces is that they are all the same rewards. From 10+ they all give
Round 1 PoP spell plus 4 relics
Round 2 5 KP and 4 relics

Instead of busting my butt fighting (and sometimes losing) in the 5th round of low provinces, I just shoot as far up as I can for 2 stars, getting 5 KP each province:p
 

DeletedUser7733

Guest
You kinda lost me here. If you lose a fight today, the fight will be exactly the same set up the next time you try it- Same SS for you, same SS for the enemy, same terrain, same enemy positions too.

Of course! Where did I say I fight the same province day after and hope for a better result?

The nice thing about going into the higher provinces is that they are all the same rewards. From 10+ they all give
Round 1 PoP spell plus 4 relics
Round 2 5 KP and 4 relics

Instead of busting my butt fighting (and sometimes losing) in the 5th round of low provinces, I just shoot as far up as I can for 2 stars, getting 5 KP each province:p

This works for you because you've skipped squad size upgrades. I haven't skipped squad size upgrades and therefore have to adjust my strategy for it. Why should I do something that makes me to run out of troops easier so it's harder to replace them? Bigger squad size means bigger losses means harder to replace the troops. I thought that we both agreed on that.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
Why should I do something that makes me to run out of troops easier so it's harder to replace them? Bigger squad size means bigger losses means harder to replace the troops. I thought that we both agreed on that.
Getting smushed and losing 80% of your troops in a high round low province is often worse than crushing a higher province for very low % losses.
E.G.
In province #5 round #5 with 1,000 SS (250 in this fight)
maybe you can win the fight with 50 left because the enemy had a 45% advantage over you. (200 troops lost)
or
In province #10 round 2 with 1,000 SS (500 in this fight)
maybe you win the fight with 400 left because the enemy had no advantage over you. (100 troops lost)
 

DeletedUser7733

Guest
Trust me, I have a lot of experience with my strategy. If I lose in province no 10 it's harder to replace the troops than if I lose in province no 1, regardless of the round. Of course, I'm more likely to lose in round 5 than in round 1. If I keep fighting the lowest possible provinces, the lower are my losses and the easier they are to replace. It's exactly the same logic as with researching the SS upgrades.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
Trust me, I have a lot of experience with my strategy.

Have you tried it much the other way? I'm open to the possibility that for you your current strategy works better, but when I tested it under admittedly different conditions the results were interesting:
I have 2 nearly identical accounts and (mostly out of boredom) I tried a few tournaments where 1 would do as many provinces as possible 5 times, and the other would do as many as possible 2 times. The results were quite conclusive that I got better rewards* going for the 2x using the same troops.**

I'm just sayin don't knock it till ya try it*** :D

* "better rewards" might mean different things to different people, so to clarify, for me, KP>spells>runes>relics
** One city is human, and the other elf, so I went with archers&xbow for steel, and then dogs for scroll and orc strategists for elixir
*** I've never tried this without wonders, so your results may be wildly different and if the world ends by trying it the other way I blame @yo momma love me ;)
 

DeletedUser7733

Guest
I actually try it every week, I autofight each round as long as I keep winning once I lose I stop. That's my sign of getting into risky provinces and it can cost me a lot of troops if I kept going and losing. This week I've done 12 provinces in round 1 and 7 in round 2. Because of the setup I have, I lose earlier than you do. I could try harder by training better troops by using Training Grounds more, it's just easier to use Barracks only. Once the RR spell is out, I'll try harder again. When I needed relics to boost my production, I started catering once I lost. And yes, I agree that the rewards are better in provinces 1 and 2 so I catered just them to get as many KPs as I could on top of the relics I needed. Now, I just fight as there's better ways to spend goods to get KPs like buying them directly.
 
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DeletedUser7733

Guest
@Killiak I used to do that and lost all my troops too early. It could gain me a province or two in that round while I could do more provinces in next round. I have completed all the squad size upgrades so I can lose all my army if keep going too far into the provinces. That's why I have to watch what I risk.
 

IamMiky

Seeker
@Killiak I used to do that and lost all my troops too early. It could gain me a province or two in that round while I could do more provinces in next round. I have completed all the squad size upgrades so I can lose all my army if keep going too far into the provinces. That's why I have to watch what I risk.
Same here,I do 2200-2600pts and dont have no adverse affects,can sustain that.
 

IamMiky

Seeker
Of course! Where did I say I fight the same province day after and hope for a better result?



This works for you because you've skipped squad size upgrades. I haven't skipped squad size upgrades and therefore have to adjust my strategy for it. Why should I do something that makes me to run out of troops easier so it's harder to replace them? Bigger squad size means bigger losses means harder to replace the troops. I thought that we both agreed on that.
100% correct,right now I do 2 pages 2 rounds,then 9p round 3 (get 5kp on 9) then first page to round 5,average score 2200-2600 each tour and can sustain that with no adverse effects.
 
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